EPISODE 20: Finances Part 1 with The White Coat Investor, James Dahle MD

Join Andrew Tisser (Talk2MeDoc Podcast) with James Dahle as they talk about finances for doctors. James is a self-taught expert on financing and investing who aims to help other physicians like himself to learn about managing their wealth. He reveals his strategy to pay off student debt in a few years and gives tips for long-time doctors who still might be struggling with their student debt. They also get into the significance of getting disability insurance during residency and other financial aspects that resident doctors need to be aware of.

By the end of the episode, you will learn to keep your spending down, be able to adapt to changes, and take a break from time to time. Enjoy!

Today’s Guest

James Dahle, MD

About James Dahle:

“My name is Jim Dahle. I am a practicing board-certified emergency physician 12 years out of residency.  Although I’ve always been interested in personal finance and investing, I really started diving into the field mid-way through residency when I finally got sick of financial professionals ripping me off.  You can read the “origin story” for this blog if you want the gory details.

Bottom line, I’m apparently a slow learner, but I finally realized that if I didn’t acquire at least a basic understanding of personal finance and investing that I would continue to be the target of unethical financial professionals for the rest of my life, and perhaps never reach my financial goals. So I embarked on a lengthy, self-taught process to learn personal finance and investing, particularly as it applied to physicians and other high income professionals like myself. After a few years of reading books and blogs and participating on internet forums, I realized I was doing a lot more teaching than learning and that nobody was teaching this stuff to doctors. Not in medical school. Not in residency. And not to busy attending docs. I couldn’t find a single active financial blog out there that was directed at physicians. So I started it myself to provide the resource that I wish had been available to me.”

You can find James Dahle on…

The White Coat Investor

“So I think when you walk out of medical school, your first financial task is lining up disability insurance, and you might only qualify for a benefit of $5000 or $7,000 a month, but I tell you what, you’re gonna be way better off living off five or $7,000 a month than you are living off, what you’re gonna get from Social Security if you get completely disabled.”

Resources (Click for Amazon)

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Check out other great episodes with Michelle Flemmings, MD and Karen Panzarella PT, PhD, CHSE

Disclaimer

All opinions expressed by the guest in this episode are solely the guest’s opinions and do not reflect the opinions of Andrew Tisser DO, Talk2MeDoc LLC, or any affiliates thereof. The guest’s opinions are based upon information he considers reliable, but Andrew Tisser DO, Talk2MeDoc LLC, nor any affiliates thereof warrant its completeness or accuracy. The guest, Andrew Tisser DO, Talk2MeDoc LLC, or any affiliates thereof are not under any obligation to update or correct any information provided in this episode. The guest’s statements and opinions are subject to change without notice.

Transcript

Andrew Tisser 0:08
Dr. Jim Dahle welcome to the Talk2MeDoc Podcast.

Thank you. I’m glad to be here.

Oh, it’s a great honor for me. I’ve been following your work since I was a medical student, I believe.

The White Coat Investor 2:09
Awesome. That means what I’m doing is working. So I’m trying to catch people early before they make all the usual financial mistakes.

Andrew Tisser 2:16
I think I’ve still made a couple of mistakes even though I knew better, but what are you gonna do? That’s life.

The White Coat Investor 2:21
The nice thing about it is as doctors you know, I guess I don’t say this very often, we can actually afford to screw up quite a bit and still be okay. The average Joe can necessarily do that. But mostly, we just got to keep from making the big mistakes, and we’ll be just fine.

Andrew Tisser 2:37
Yeah, that’s fair. That’s good to hear. I’ve already recorded a little bio about you and I think most of my listeners know who you are, but in a few words, could you just introduce yourself and for those who don’t know you?

The White Coat Investor 2:50
Sure. I’m a practicing emergency physician. I’m now boy how far am I 14 years out of residency? I feel old now. But about five years Got a residency. So nine years ago, I started the white coat investor, as a blog and you know, subsequently mushroomed into books and an online course and a podcast and a Facebook group. And, you know, there’s a live conference every year to now and just kind of become this multimedia company. But the reason I started it was to help Doc’s get a fair shake on Wall Street.

I just saw this huge dearth of financial education, financial literacy among physicians, we were you know, we were a joke among financial professionals that we were whales to be harpoon, you know, and because of our high incomes were the targets for unscrupulous, you know, financial professionals, and I just kind of got sick of being ripped off myself decided to self educate, so that that wouldn’t happen anymore, and then realize that there was a real niche there to teach other doctors about this stuff. And so that was that was why I started the blog and it’s, it’s grown quite a bit over the last nine years.

Andrew Tisser 3:58
Yeah, I’ll say at the beginning Come on household name.

The White Coat Investor 4:02
Well, I think in a small segment of households in the US, that may be the case, you know, it’s this weird thing about being internet famous I, I run into people who know all about me know about my kids know about my life know about my finances, and I don’t know them from Adam, you know, but nobody’s ever gonna recognize me if I walk onto, you know, CNBC or something. So I’m not that famous, but certainly, in the physician, financial niche, it’s, it’s become become pretty well known. So that’s good. You know, we put a lot of effort into getting people to stumble onto our stuff. So it’s nice to see that they are.

Andrew Tisser 4:35
Yeah, for sure. I mean, there’s definitely still quite a few physicians that don’t know who you are, and are falling prey to some of the financial advisors and other misinformation out there. So we, all of us who do follow you appreciate your work. But I have some questions for you today. So there’s, you know, there’s been a lot of talk recently about student loans and medical school tuition reform through to COVID. And you know, I know a lot of your messaging has always been to live like a resident and get out of debt. But now as we see physicians graduating residences with five and $600,000, in student loan debt, are you still advising the same kind of situation? Or has has your messaging changed?

The White Coat Investor 5:19
I don’t know, the messaging has really changed much significantly, anytime recently. I mean, here’s the deal. There are a lot of people that are just hoping and praying that someone will swoop in on a white horse and wipe out their student loans. And I think that is, you know, optimistic is not a strong enough word. I think naive is probably the word that is appropriate to describe that if that is your hope, with your student loans that somehow because of COVID they’re just going to be wiped out.

You know, I think there was a congressman that even put a proposal into the house of wiping out student loans for healthcare workers. Well, that’s very nice. You know, just like it’s nice for people to say thank you for your service, but I don’t see that passing anytime soon, right? I mean, I don’t think the government’s going to pick winners and losers quite to that extent. You know, and so I would not count on just having your student loans wiped out because you work in health care, and there was a pandemic, you know, a year from now, I just don’t think there’s going to be quite the emphasis on the pandemic that there is now. And I think things are going to be a little bit back to normal in that respect, I would not expect some sweeping change in the student loan management space.

That said, My message about student loans is don’t pay off loans, someone else is going to pay off for you. But if you’re paying off your loans, try to be done with them within five years out of residency. And so what I mean if someone else is going to pay them off for you, for example, if you have a military commitment, right, and you have traded some time in the military, for them paying for medical school, well, you have dead it’s just a different kind of debt. The VA has a program where they pay back some of your loans There are numerous state programs out there will they they will pay back something loans.

Some employers have loan payback programs. And you want to make sure you maximize the benefits of any of these programs you might be eligible for. But the big one out there is public service loan forgiveness. And this is the one where if you work for a 501 c three full time and your loans are in a qualified program, and you make on time payments for 120 months, the rest is forgiven tax free. So if that’s your goal, if you’re an academic Doc, or you’re directly employed by a 501, c three and you’re trying to get your loans forgiven, well, no, don’t refinance them. If you refinance them, they come out of the federal programs, and you’re not going to get public service loan forgiveness for likewise, don’t pay extra on them, because anything extra you pay is just money lost because they’re going to be forgiven tax free anyway.

And so those are the two main options to paying off your student loans. The only recent significant change is that for the next four or five months now as a total of six months, but a little bit of time has gone by, but basically until September 30, your payments are zero dollars. And zero percent interest on your federal student loans. And all those non payments actually count as payments toward public service loan forgiveness.

So those going for Public Service Loan Forgiveness have really, really benefited from this, whereas those who refinance their student loans, you know, kind of did the right thing they get a lower interest rate in January or February or March are kind of getting hosed by this recent change. But that’s the only recent change in student loan management and come the end of September. I expect there’s going to be a massive refinancing of student loans, you know, once the zero percent thing for federal loans goes away.

Andrew Tisser 8:34
Yeah, that’s fair. I you know, I, of course, I would support them wiping the slate clean, but I don’t figure that’s gonna ever happen. I think using some of this conversation to talk about the outrageous cost of medical school and medical school tuition reform is more beneficial in that regard. I haveThe White Coat Investor 8:54
absolutely the problem is not the loans. The problem is the cost of tuition. Right, exactly. I mean,

Andrew Tisser 9:00
$100,000 a year to go become a doctor at some of these major institutions now is I mean by the end of residency would, what would the interest rates as they are? I mean, you’re you’re really you’re really kind of screwed coming out?

The White Coat Investor 9:15
Yeah. I mean, it’s it’s insanity. I mean, think about the first two years, right, first two years, for the most part, everyone’s got, you know, some sort of clinical programs or some sort of problem based learning, but for the most first two years, most of it is studying the same material at every medical school in the country, right? I mean, why not get the very best instructors put them on video provide all these great online resources? I mean, that’s how people are learning anyway, even back when I was in medical school at the turn of the millennium.

You know, we were all using review books. You know, we were reading the textbooks. Why are we buying these textbooks and we were learning most of what we need to learn out of review books rather than from lectures and textbooks. And it just needs to modernize a little bit and help them to learn the material in the best possible way to learn the material. But there’s no reason that you have to develop these programs. Every single medical school, you know, for the first couple of years, put your effort into those third year rotations and just make them spectacular.

And then standardized these first couple of years of education and the cost, I mean, really what the cost of medical school ought to be, it ought to be like $5,000 a year for the first couple of years, because you’re doing most of it online. And then, you know, maybe it’s $40,000 as an MS three, you know, when the I school access, but a ton of effort into providing the education and some of that money out to go to people is not going to now, which is the people that are doing the educating the you know, the attendings and the residence on those services. So I think that the whole thing’s just kind of screwed up, really, but, um, we’re kind of stuck with what we’ve got, as far as a medical training system. I would just love to see the tuition quit skyrocketing, you know,

Andrew Tisser 10:50
oh, it’s great. I mean, even when I graduated in 2014, to now is a totally different world. So, you know, I think that yeah, that’s the conversation we need. To be having I never even went to class. I watched all my lectures remotely. And and you know, like why?

The White Coat Investor 11:08
Like the teachers at your school were the best ones, right? No way. No, one of them there was the best one in the country, but the rest of them are some other institutions. So why not get the best path of his teacher to teach path? Oh fears, you know, it just doesn’t make any sense.

Andrew Tisser 11:21
No, I agree. I agree completely. I mean, my wife and I are in a split house. Also, she’s going for Public Service Loan Forgiveness with her absurd balance, and I refinance, because I’m an ER doc. And, you know, I didn’t really have much options in that regard. But yeah, I think, I think people that are just hoping for complete forgiveness. You know, we keep hoping but we’ll see.

The White Coat Investor 11:44
I mean, sure. Hope for it. And, you know, sometimes I’m surprised. I was surprised when President Trump got up there, declared a federal state of emergency on March 13, and said, you know, student loans are going to zero percent and I’m like, wow, you know, I didn’t expect that. So who knows, maybe something can happened. But I think hoping for that is silly. I think you need to make plans based on current law. And when current law changes, change your plans.

Otherwise, you’re liable to be, you know, 18 years out of residency and still owe $900,000 in student loans, because you’ve just been letting them right.

Andrew Tisser 12:16
Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, do you still think, for people coming out with 600 k balances that, you know, I hear the argument a lot. Well, I gave up my 20s and early 30s, I want to have a buy a house and have a family and paying $10,000 a month towards my loans, not really conducive to that,

The White Coat Investor 12:35
okay, but you’re not willing to be an academic doc for four or five years. You’re not willing to go work at the VA for four or five years or go be in the military for four or five years, right. I mean, that’s all you got to do to get public service loan forgiveness. You know, I mean, I don’t think you can really make that argument when they’ve made it so easy to get public service loan forgiveness. I mean, if I owed $600,000, I would be an academic doctor for the first five or six years. My career, whatever it takes to hit that, you know, 120 payment point, and then you can go do whatever you want, you’re free, you know.

So I don’t think you can really claim that just because I became a doctor society owes me something. I mean, imagine how that’s gonna play out as a headline in the New York Times, you know, doctors forgiven $600,000 in student loans, it’s not going to go over very well. And once a few people start getting it, you know, Public Service Loan Forgiveness may change. And so I wouldn’t expect the program to get more generous than it already is, in a lot of ways Public Service Loan Forgiveness is far more generous for doctors than it is for anybody else.

Andrew Tisser 13:36
Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, I don’t I don’t think that was the original intent of the program, but for what it is what it is, and according to our current promissory notes, that’s, that’s what it’s gonna do.

The White Coat Investor 13:47
Yeah, exactly. And, and I don’t think you know, that’s going to change for those who have that in their current promissory notes. Don’t get me wrong, but I’d be very surprised if 10 years from now people starting medical school, we’re still gonna be able to get public service loan for list. I think the program is going to change because I think people are going to start seeing it as a doctor giveaway program.

Andrew Tisser 14:07
Yeah, I they, I think the press and right now we’re starting to see, you know, bigger balances I saw like 150 k the other day and things. But now once Yeah, once we get into the 400 500, it’s gonna get, it’s going to be abstain

The White Coat Investor 14:20
for various reasons really the doctors getting Public Service Loan Forgiveness aren’t really going to hit until 2022 is when there’s gonna be a really big number. And there’s a Facebook group out there of just doctors going for public service, loan forgiveness, and a year or so ago, I put a poll in there of how many payments you’ve made so far, how many qualifying payments, and the top ones were only 80 or 90 payments. So they were still a couple of years away at that point from getting forgiveness, you know, just because people didn’t get enrolled into it and know about the program, whatever, whatever.

But people are like, Well, where’s all the people getting forgiveness, they’re coming. They’re coming and when they do start getting that I’ll be curious to see if Congress makes some changes because proposed changes in the past. I mean, the Obama administration made several proposals in their budgets to limit the amount forgiven to just $57,000 a year, which is obviously a non starter for a doc who owes 10 times that much, you know, and so it wouldn’t surprise me if after they really start becoming common if the rules change, but I think those currently and will be grandfathered in.

Andrew Tisser 15:22
Fair enough. Well, I guess enough about loans for now. The so let’s say you know, I have a lot of Resident listeners. So, if you were a resident right now, and let’s say you have you have your student loan plan, whatever it may be, what do you think are some of the other major issue financial issues that we should be trying to handle while in residency?

The White Coat Investor 15:44
I think the number one is disability insurance. You know, I mean, you have you know, talking about dedicating your 20s and a good chunk of your 30s to one thing, you have basically put all your financial eggs in one basket and that basket is To earn a living as a physician for the rest of your career, you probably ought to protect that basket. And the way you do that is disability insurance. And so you need something in place, anything in place, you know, because residents do get disabled number one, and number two residents become uninsurable, you know, they develop a medical problem during residency or they take up, you know, dangerous hobbies or whatever, whatever, for whatever reason, they become uninsurable.

So I think when you walk out of medical school, your first financial task is lining up disability insurance, and you might only qualify for a benefit of 5000 or $7,000 a month, but I tell you what, you’re gonna be way better off living off five or $7,000 a month than you are living off, you know, what you’re gonna get from Social Security if you get completely disabled. And so I think that’s, that’s a big part of it right there.

You know, beyond that, I think the most important task is just being ready when you become an attending physician to have a written plan ready or your first 12 paychecks as an attending physician, because where you really build wealth as a doctor is not in residency, where you build wealth is as an attending when you start getting the big paychecks when you’re getting, you know, 15,20 $25,000 a month. And that’s where you’re going to build your wealth. So I think you really need a good written plan in place by the time you come out of residency, so you don’t blow it.

Because what most doctors do is they end up in the big fat doctor house before they’ve even left residency, and they got a couple of car payments on an Audi in a Tesla. You know, and I think you got to avoid screwing that step up. It’s the most important financial year of your life. That year you come out of residency, so I think planning for that getting disability insurance and not screwing up your student loan plan, that are probably the big three in residency.

Andrew Tisser 17:43
Okay, so, so you got that under control, you have disability, you have a loan plan and your year plan. You don’t plan on buying six cars as soon as you get out. Well, what else are we doing that first year as an attending, you know, life insurance is cheap. That’s one of them. What else are you what else is happening that first year?

The White Coat Investor 18:05
Well, I mean, if you’ve got dependents, you know someone else depending on your income besides you, you probably need life insurance before the time you’re an attending and your right term life insurance is pretty cheap. So go get a million bucks worth as a resident and maybe buy a little more when you become an attending. You know, it’s just not that expensive of stuff. You could as a resident, you can probably get a million dollars for like $300 a year, you know, and that way, if you die, your family’s taken care of other things as an attending, what typically happens when you come out of residency is you have all these great uses for your money and not enough cash.

You know, you want to be paying on student loans, you want to be saving up a down payment for a house, you want to buff up your emergency fund. You know, you maybe want to get rid of that beater, you’ve been driving for seven years. You know, you got all these uses for cash, and now you’re trying to decide where to put the limited cash because even though you’re getting paid a lot more, you get a lot more uses for as an attendee. So I think your big focus is at that point, if You’re not going for public service loan forgiveness.

One big focus is making big huge payments on your student loans. I’m talking like $10,000 a month. You know, even if you got $200,000 $300,000 in student loans, if you’re putting $10,000 a month at them, they’re gonna be gone in two or three years, you know, you’re gonna wipe them out. So I think that’s a big use for your money, a big chunk that ought to be going there unless you’re expecting forgiveness. Another big use for your money is maxing out retirement accounts.

You know, now is the time to start getting that habit of saving for retirement and I tell attendings, they need to be saving at least 20% of their gross income for retirement. So if you’re putting 20% of your gross income toward retirement and you’re sending, you know, eight or $10,000 a month to your student loans, there’s not that much money left over, even not attending income. And so what you really got to do for those first few years until those student loans are gone, is live like a resident.

You can give yourself a little bit of a raise, you know, make your life a little better than it was as a resident but your lifestyle should resemble more what you are doing as a resident than what you will later do as an attendee for those first two to five years out of residency. And if you can control your spending enough to do that, to wipe out your student loans in the first two to five years out of residency, while maximum retirement accounts, I think you won, I think you won the physician financial game.

And, you know, I think it’s really does come down to being that simple. Now, obviously, you want to become financially literate, you want to have some sort of reasonable investing plan. You want to learn about your retirement accounts, you know, you want to have a will in place, all these kinds of things, but the big items are keep your spending down enough, you can still save for retirement while wiping out the student loans quickly.

Andrew Tisser 20:42
Yeah, that’s great. That’s great advice. Now, on the flip side, it’s easy to say but hard to do, right? Very, very hard to do. But Alright, let’s say you’re five years out and you did none of those things. And you have $400,000 in debt and you bought a big, big house. And you got it and you have a Tesla. And, you know, maybe you’ve been, you’ve been doing your 19,000 a year for your 401k, let’s say did that right? Now what?

The White Coat Investor 21:13
You know is kind of reminds me of the story of Disha Spath. She is an internist who was living in North Carolina or South Carolina, I think about, I don’t know, three or four or five years out of residency, she realized that that was her that she still had all these student loans. She wasn’t making any financial progress, and that job wasn’t nearly as secure as she thought it was. So in conjunction with a move she had, she actually dramatically cut her spending.

And actually, you know, did the opposite of what most of us do, which is just increase how fast we run on the hedonic treadmill. And she actually cut her spending dramatically and, and kind of went back to living like a resident for a little while and wiped out her debt and became so excited about it. She started blogging. It started blogging about I think it’s called the frugal physician. But I thought that was really notable because so few doctors do that. So few of them cut their lifestyle back. But if you’ve gotten to the point where you’re like, Oh, crap, I screwed this up. What other option do you have?

I mean, how many more days a month? Can you work without getting burned out? You know, are you really gonna go, Okay, I’m just gonna work until I’m 75? Or will you cut back a little bit of spending now. So you can kind of take care of business. So it’s not like live like a resident doesn’t work. If you don’t start until five years out of residency. It’s just much, much harder to do because now you’re in the nice fancy house in the nice, fancy neighborhood, send your kids to the nice, fancy, private school. But all of that can go backwards if you’re willing to do it. I think what most people actually do is they just make some moderate changes, though, and make sure that they’re can actually reach their goals. But you know, you got to make some sort of change if you realize you are not on the path to where you want to be.

Andrew Tisser 22:58
Yeah, that’s fair. I mean, you know, No, it’s not all or nothing either you can have, you can have the big house and the cars and realize you, you might be in trouble. But cut back a little bit, maybe just the plan takes a little longer.

The White Coat Investor 23:10
Yeah, exactly. Just make sure that it’s not, it doesn’t take till you’re 78 it’s pretty easy to run the numbers of how much you’re saving for retirement and how long you’re gonna have to work to support your lifestyle. This is not a complex calculation, right? You basically need 25 times what you’re spending. And you can calculate out how fast your money’s going to grow with how much you’re saving are reasonable, you know, rate of returns, see where you’re at. I think that’s a good exercise for people to do.

If they run the numbers, a lot of times they will convince themselves, you know what, this lifestyle is not worth working until I’m 83. You know, and they will make changes and, and, and do that kind of voluntarily without feeling like they’re having to they’ll, they’ll do it voluntarily because they realize that they don’t want to work this hard for the next 40 years.

Andrew Tisser 23:54
Yeah, medicine as a career without any changes in the current iteration. I don’t think it’s sustainable. d3 anymore. So it’s Yeah, that would I think terrify a lot of people. Yeah, exactly. But all right, well, we’re running out a little time here. I just want to shift the show over to get to know you as a guest. So I know you’re a busy guy, Jim, but what are you working on these days?

The White Coat Investor 24:21
Well, I’m working on a book right now aimed at medical students, you know, one that’s kind of specific to medical students. We have some big plans for that. I’m supposed to finish that this summer, but I’ve got to get busy on it, you know, with all the homeschooling of children going on and trying to keep the business afloat, and we just renovated our home. So we just moved back into it. I haven’t made as much progress on that as I’d like. But that’s probably the biggest thing coming up.

We just wrapped up our recent conference. It was in March just before the pandemic started. And we’re hoping that we’ll be able to do one of those in 2021. But we might have to push it off till 2022 for obvious reasons. And then we’re just trying to, you know, live life and Enjoy our children and enjoy the life we try to create for ourselves. I my 16 year old just turned 16 today when down, tried to get a driver’s license and of course was told she has to make an appointment two weeks out in order to get that license. So she’s all disappointed but that’s kind of what I’m doing between now and when I leave for my shift this afternoon is trying to help her to have a happy birthday.

Andrew Tisser 25:22
Well congratulations to her that’s that’s a milestone for sure. Well, the besides your own books, do you have any reading recommendations for listeners?

The White Coat Investor 25:33
Sure, I keep a list of recommended books on my website. If you go to white coat, investor calm, you can just go under books and you’ll see that but if I had to get someone to read three books, I think the books I would tell them to read would be number one, probably the investors Manifesto. This is by a doctor. This is by William Bernstein. And it’s a great guide to investing. So I’d recommend that one One I really like about behavioral finance is by Pryor Wall Street Journal columnist by the name of Jonathan Clements. And that book, let me see if I can remember the title here is called. Let’s see, where is it? I mean, look down my list here.

It is how to think about money. I think it’s really good. It’s by Jonathan Clements how to think about money. No, I think it’s worthwhile reading a book that’s specific to physicians. You know, and I, you know, I’m obviously partially my own. I like the white coat investor. I think it’s a great introductory book to the financial aspects that are specific to positions. My second book, the white coat, investors, financial bootcamp is kind of a step by step guide to walk you through the things you need to take care of with your finances. I think either one of those are okay in conjunction with the other two books. That’s what I’d recommend.

Andrew Tisser 26:52
Thanks. Yeah, I’ll put a link of course to your website and all that in the show notes. And what are you doing for fun these days?

The White Coat Investor 27:00
Well, I’ve actually got a couple of things coming up here x a bunch of trips, we’ll see how many I’m actually able to do. Most of them are here in Utah, outdoors, he kind of trips but you know, with trail heads closing and all kinds of interesting things happening with the pandemic. I’m not sure exactly how many of these are going to happen. But next week, I’m going canyoneering. And then I’m hoping to do a trip with a family to Lake Powell over Memorial Day. And then we’ve got a supposed to be doing a camping trip and canyoneering trip with some of the youth in the area. I’m not sure if that one’s actually going to happen. And then a rafting trip. We’re gonna try to RAF the San Juan River. So that’s all coming up in the next month or so. So we’ve been working hard for last few months, it’s time to take a break.

Andrew Tisser 27:42
Absolutely. That all sounds awesome. Well, I’ll be sure to let people know how to find you. I think they probably know already but I wanted to say thank you Jim again, for all you’ve done over these last few years. You know, I had to I had to battle my starstruck nerves before getting you on the on the show here. But thanks for all you’ve done for medical students or residents and our current attendings and financial matters and are keep plugging away in the ER, I know, some, many others would have dropped clinically by now but you keep plugging away.

The White Coat Investor 28:15
Yeah, it’s, it’s interesting that way, but I feel like it not only provides me a break from what I do at home, but also is something I’m passionate about, you know, I went to medical school for a reason. So I appreciate that and I appreciate what you do both at work and with this new podcast and I wish you the best of luck with it.

Andrew Tisser 28:32
Thanks, Jim. We’ll take care and be safe.

The White Coat Investor 28:35
Thank you. Bye bye.